The oxygen of free societies is freedom of speech. Everything short of incitement has to be tolerated, even when it is wrong. You can't get much more egregiously wrong and wicked than the views expressed by al-Muhajiroun. But they are currently operating in what I hope will be a very brief legal air-pocket. As with the BNP, while they are legal and are being given a platform by independent organisations, they cannot go unchallenged.
Some months
ago I received an invitation to debate sharia law from something called the
"Global Issues Society" (GIS). They claimed to be a student society.
I accepted the invitation in good faith and was assured - repeatedly - that the
platform and chairperson were neutral (the chair, as I later discovered, most
certainly wasn't). My office was in regular communication with the GIS
stipulating the conditions under which a safe debate could be had opposite an
extremist like Choudary.
We were sceptical of GIS from the start. We strongly suspected that they were
some sort of front group. But we couldn't satisfactorily confirm the fact.
Despite our concerns, and our knowledge that it was a possible ambush, I gave
them the benefit of the doubt and decided to attend the event in good faith.
It became
clear as soon as people arrived that it was an ambush. We had been assured by
GIS that security guards would be hired, but there was a problem - they were
members of al-Muhajiroun. Their only purpose was to ensure the men and women
remain segregated - a condition never stipulated to us by GIS and a
gender-apartheid which I would never accept at any event I was speaking at.
Before I even arrived a member of the public was assaulted and a mini-riot
ensued. I was advised to keep away from the hall until the arriving police had
got a hold on the situation.
Of course I
have no "supporters" or "followers" who attend my talks. I
don't have a "faction". I am just one voice who people can either
agree with or - more commonly in these pages at any rate - disagree with.
The easy
thing to do is to turn down invitation to debates like these. I speak at
various events, including student societies, several times a week. I can't
think of the last time I spoke at an event where a majority of people agreed
with me. But the point of free-speech isn't continuous and tedious
hymn-singing. Audiences I speak to are often openly hostile and I know my
arguments might fall on deaf ears with 99% of the audience. Yesterday I was
surrounded on the street by 100 thugs yelling "fucking kuffar" and
"coward". There was some pretty pathetic homophobic abuse too. The
easy thing to do is to ignore these people. But I don't think we can.
I have had
too many experiences of finding just one person or a couple of people, usually
young, who have genuinely never had their minds opened up by contrary opinions.
Even when they don't agree with a new opinion, they can at least become aware
that the point of free societies is that we don't agree. On anything. And
certainly - for well known reasons - never unanimously. Never finally. The
debate is the thing.
At events I
regularly meet young Muslims and non-Muslims who have simply never heard
arguments put for why liberal democracy is, though not perfect, our only
achievable, messy, hope. I think it important that they hear someone speaking
in defence of religious pluralism, women's rights, gay rights, and actual
diversity in society. I also think it important that they hear religions
critiqued, satirised and treated in the same robust manner in which the rest of
us have our most cherished ideas treated.
Past
experience across the country has shown it is even possible to chip away at the
mindset of radicalised Muslims - sowing seeds of doubt. Even if it is just one
member of the audience who is receptive to the anti-totalitarian possibility it
is vital to do this. It is the reason why I debate.
Some people
will say that al-Muhajiroun should not be given the oxygen of publicity.
Yesterday showed why bringing them out in the open and challenging their ideas
is necessary. It reminds the government, the press and British citizens of the
true nature of these fundamentalist thugs who are not just going to disappear.
Not since Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists (BUF) have we seen
intimidation like this on the streets of London. Like the BUF, they will resort
to violence the moment their fascist views are challenged. Every piece of
publicity al-Muhajiroun gain is additional ammunition to encourage the
government to shut down a group whose members have regularly exceeded our incitement
laws and even involved themselves in acts of terror.
[More random comments from Choudary in response to questions from reporters and members of the public outside Conway Hall on 17 June 2009, after the debate inside was cancelled.]
I read a report only last week where you people are just filthy people. You do not clean yourselves. Feaces have been found on railings and many surfaces because you people just don’t wash. You drop your trousers and that is it. In fact it would be cleaner and more hygienic to eat in the toilet than in out in the public. (laughter from the gathered Muslim admirers)
Islam brings cleanliness to society. While you people were living in mud huts in Europe in the 8th century with only a small hole in the ceiling to let the smoke out and you people were passing on from one generation to the next your animal skin clothing with all the associated diseases and dirt we Muslims under Sharia brought cleanliness to Spain, bathes and showers and libraries and books.
We do not have to go back anywhere -- England is where Allah wants us to be, it is an obligation to guide all people into the light to the joy and justice and mercy of Islam.
You people are killing your selves off. Abortion and your non-reproduction at a high enough rate means that islam will take over in 10 to 20 years. Then there will be no debate. We are now just trying to persuade you, but it is going to happen anyway so get used to it.
I do not need to go down the road of condemning every suicide bomber and have a 1 minute silence. Why don’t you ask about the genocide of Muslims by the West especially in Tora Bora. 100,000 Muslims massacred by the West. But you are cowards because you do not ask your governments about that but you come here and demand that I condemn the 7-7 bombers. If we condemn the 7-7 bombers the government will say we have not gone far enough. If we do not condemn them the government says ‘see you are extremists.’
In all the history of Islam societies under Sharia only reported 60 rapes whereas in today’s society there are 60 rapes a day (or some such figure). In all of Islamic history there have been only a few murders. When (so and so of such a time period) xxx left out a pot of gold in the town square no one touched it. But if I was to just leave out my lunch on a bench it would be stolen in 5 minutes. (laughter from the gathered Muslim admirers). You speak of Hitler and the Mufti meeting together but it was the Christian west in the last century was a time of genocide. So go back and read your history. You know nothing.
The jiyziah is paid by the non-muslim but it only amounts to 4 dinar a year. And you would not have to join the armed forces. The Muslims would protect the non-muslim. And yes you would be able to worship and marry as you wish. No you would not be able to build new churches but you could repair the holes in your old ones so the rain does not fall on your heads. (laughter from the gathered Muslim admirers). During one of the early periods of Islamic rule the non-Muslims actually fought on the side of the Muslims against the Romans because they knew that they would be better off under Islamic protection than under Roman rule.
What does it mean for you to say that you respect me as a human being but not my religion? That does not make any sense. Animals eat and walk and deficate too. You are not making any sense. Next time you try to ask a question stop taking drugs. You must be on cocaine, you cannot string two sentences together that make sense. (laughter from the gathered Muslim admirers)
Douglass Murray refused to show up. He wanted changes in the format of the debate at the last minute. He wanted to shortened the presentations from 45 to 25 minutes because he would run out of things to say. (laughter from the gathered Muslim admirers). But how can we do just to the glorious subject of Islam and Sharia and what it has to offer society in only 25 minutes?
Maryam and the ex-muslims can say that they were Muslims but that does not mean that they were. People can say that they were aliens once and are now are human beings but that does not make it so. (laughter from the gathered Muslim admirers). Those people are not worthy of notice. They were never really Muslims. If you know Islam you would never leave it. It is the most perfect religion and the one system that coincides with your true humanity. The ex-Muslims group promised to come here and disrupt this meeting and shout during the debate.
Any other questions?
--
from Kinana:
I should add that Mr Murray did eventually show up. he and his security and other people (press?) went into the building. Came out a few minutes later and proceeded to leave the area. Shouts rose up: 'Murray is a coward'. He paused for a brief exchange with the press and some Muslims but I was not able to hear anything. I do not believe that Choudary was near him or spoke to him but I could be wrong.
On my way home I met a reporter from the Independent who was writing up an article for tomorrow’s issue. ‘What did you think of the meeting?’ he asked. ‘The debate on Sharia was perfectly illustrated by the events. It was in fact a demonstration of Sharia. Given their power and the circumstances pertaining tonight, Muslims will only permit a debate, and indeed any interaction, with non-Muslims on terms dictated by the Muslims themselves.’